First, thanks for all the work you do on Delta Chat, it’s truly the best messaging application!
Since the new instant onboarding, I’ve introduced several friends to Delta Chat who have bounced off it and gone back to proprietary messaging apps.
They say, “I can message some people but not others, and I can’t post in the groupchat!”
This is because they’ve created a chatmail account, and so cannot interact with others using classic email. Of course, they’re not interested in the explanation and before I can suggest that they try “Add profile” → “Create new profile” → “Use other server” → “Classic email login” they’ve gone back to Facebook messenger.
Proposals:
The signup with chatmail should include some explanation that it won’t work with unencrypted plain email accounts (and groupchats that contain them).
That “Classic email login” be moved, so that that after choosing “Add profile” the user is presented with three options: “Create new account”, “Classic email login” and “I already have a profile”.
That this screen should have a short explanatory sentence, something like:
Chatmail is a secure form of email which will reject unencrypted messages. Choose “Classic email login” to communicate with people who aren’t using encryption
It’s almost like the app should now be forked in to two differently named apps. One that is geared toward what people understood DeltaChat to be - a nearly-instant chat client that utilized already existing email infrastructure and accounts as the back end, and the other being a chatmail service that is, of course, completely separate from already established email infrastructure.
There is now no obvious path in the client to set it up using an already established Email account (If there were, the Create New Profile page/screen would ask for your email address, not your name and a default push to nine.testrun.org), and heavy weighting to get users to use chatmail by default.
The fact that default/onboarded chatmail accts cannot send classic emails is confusing to new users, especially after they finally grasp that their new messenger uses ‘email technology’ and can interface freely with those not using delta chat. Delta chat’s provision of a chat-like interface for classic platform-agnostic email should not be overlooked as prime reason for the tool’s adoption. I believe the inability to send an email using chatmail is a serious limitation. Either the UI/onboarding has to be rethought to make it really clear to users, or devs needs to bring back the ability to send classic email with a chatmail acct.
first of all, thanks a lot for onboarding new users
however, this is no longer how Delta Chat works today.
in contrast to some years ago, Delta Chat of today is using the email system only to transport or relay messages securely.
your chat partner is identified by a cryptographic identity, not by an address.
coming soon, you can even change the address or add additional ones, for reliability. the contacts will pick them up as the cryptographic identity did not change.
the step was needed for various reasons - eg. it allows to set up cheap relays and one of the simplest and pain-free onboarding in the market. also, many classic providers just do not play well with everything they do not control.
tl;dr it is best to forget everything about that Delta Chat is using email under the hood, it is just a technical detail, that may even change or be enhanced.
we faded out many occurrences of “email” in the app and in the pages already - but we are very glad if we are pointed to flows or other things we forgot
Thanks for the explanation! It clearly highlights the vision devs currently have for delta-chat. Indeed, still as of last month, your website mentioned classic email emphatically. Today, the delta.chat welcome page today no longer mentions it at all!
Delta chat remains an enticing classic email client. Many (especially older) people continue to use classic email conversationally with family and friends from a desktop computer. Delta chat introduces a novel way to interface with classic email conversations casually from any device, and it works! Webmail accounts also serve as a cloud backup, which is desirable for many who may not be backing up conversations on a linked second device (speaking of which, the ‘second-device-as-backup’ approach should be more actively promoted as a backup strategy). Classic email server/webmail also provides an alternative interface through which to navigate and manage your messages, which is impossible to do without deltachat client or some sqlite db viewer of a full export otherwise. Obviously, accts onboarded by chatmail relays have no such flexibility.
Delta chat’s selling point as a decentralized, phone-number-free Signal app alternative is one truly great thing, but the email interoperability is definitely another! I feel there is a tension currently between these two priorities, and I hope delta chat can resolve them and communicate them clearly. How do the most active delta chat devs today see classic email support in the future? Are there plans to ultimately phase out or diminish active support for classic-email users? Your message gives me this impression..
and I hope delta chat can resolve them and communicate them clearly
we indeed want to offer a secure, decentralized instant messenger experience – since forever. however, at some point, it turned out that this does not scale well with classic providers. this is where chatmail was born, and how to get in contact was changed.
but it is true, the communication about this shift is ongoing.
while expert user might be interested to know what is used on a technical level under the hood – and expert user still can use their server or account – this does not mean anything for the average user. to not raise false expectation, we are not focusing on that any longer.
the change on the homepage is one part of that, that should have already be done much before but was overseen somehow
I think there is political value in framing Deltachatbas an e-mail client. There is currently a push for increased surveillance. This is often on the basis that new tech requires surveillance for tech reasons mere politicians cannot understand, so just trust to lobbyists and don’t seek out and talk to people like Merlinux. Oh, and think of the children.
But politicians are familiar with e-mail, and arguments to surveil e-mail are therefore harder to make. The dreadful impending threat the widespread use of e-mail poses to the world makes a weak bogeyman.
I agree, many companies with which I cooperate like DeltaChat and they ask to install this secure mail client for them, very convenient and synchronization between computers works perfectly. I make a second device after installation on my smartphone, thereby I monitor all companies to which I provide this service, through DeltaChat using this vulnerability.
Hello
Do I understand correctly that your want completely ditch email support?
I mean for me it’s very important feature, that I can use any email server without need to have my own dedicated server with chatmail relay
There are not so many chatmail servers and government can easily block this 10 servers.
We always have some whitelisted mail servers that want be blocked and deltachat helps communicate through them
we consider this advanced, however, using a classic provider for exclusively relaying messages is a supported workflow. user experience here depends strongly on the provider then, so it is not recommended in general, but useful for scenarios you described.
Could the FAQ maybe specify the “Chatmail clients” standard(s)? It would be nice if mainstream clients could add such support, and having an obvious path signposted could very much encourage that. It would also make it clear that DC is standards-based and not a walled garden.
Saying “non-Chatmail mailclients” or “mail programs” would be clearer than “apps”, as “apps” does not generally include webclients and often excludes desktop clients.
And minor English quibble, but “Chatmail” is a proper noun and takes a capital letter.
