[Discussion] Make DC a replacement for MUAs?

In K9 I manage 4 Mail addresses for different things.
I have all the stuff what is needed for E-Mail:
-relplay to one
-replay to all
-forward
-move Mails into a other folder
-archive mails
-mark mails with a star
-mark single messages as unread
-manage imap folders (I use much filters to sort my mails)
And another other things.

All I need is a distributed independent messenger with a fast and sorted UI.
Just for short messages.

If you start making DC working as a mail client (subject and so on).
Very soon people will ask for managing all folders (not only inbox and DC folder) or other stuff.

When will you stop to make it more and more to a normal mail client?
With the whole things what is needed.

If you say it’s a messenger, it’s clear defined.

And I’m sure the most people want only a messenger.
That’s why E-Mail is in daily use most replaced bei different messengers.

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And another thing I forgot.

There is a lot of work until DC is a full featured messenger.

And I think if DC has all features of a good messenger then we can talk about to extend it to a full featured mail client messenger :wink:

@webratte Personally, I just use Thunderbird (on my laptop) for these “advanced” features. But I agree with @agutierrez that these rather “basic” email features would be nice in DC.

Also, concerning the “different worlds” arguments ([Discussion] Make DC a replacement for MUAs?): When I wrote emails to friends, I never wrote “Hi” or “Kind regards” or anything, except maybe in the first email for several months. I am just writing as “informal” as with messengers.

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I think I have to appologize too for being a bit touchy and passive aggressive in my last post.

I think the idea of “having to install another app for plain email” is a bit funny. Basically everybody allready HAS an email app. It is DC that will always be “another app to install”. And yes I would prefer everybody to have two apps . . . not because DC would “not be good enough” but because DC would focus on what it is really good at.

@adbenitez and @webratte
concerning my setup: as adbenitez suspected there is something server side filtering involved. This of course makes sense since I want to get DC messages out of the way for ALL my IMAP mail clients (K-9, mutt/thunderbird, webviewer,…)

So if the topic of a mail starts with "Chat: " I move it to the DC folder. I had tried to filter by the designated header but it didn’t work right away when I did the “quick and dirty” setup and there was no reason to change it ever since.

in the DC preferences I have the following settings:

  1. watch INBOX is OFF
  2. watch Sent folder is ON
  3. watch Delta Chat folder is ON
  4. automatically move to Delta Chat folder is ON

I suspect that I could disable 2. and or 4.
But I never tried. Never had any problems.

in K-9 I deactivated notifications and automatic syncing for the Delat Chat folder.

Anyway.

For various reasons I ditched DC a few days ago (mainly because I never had more than one other guy that used it). So I’ll take the liberty to simply not respond to anymore :wink: (maybe I’ll do. But don’t think bad of me if I don’t)

Take care. Be kind.

One parting thought:
given his name @webratte has German as his (or her) mother tongue (it is my mother tongue too). I suspect that @adbenitez and @agutierrez have Spanish or Portuguese as their mother tongue. Of course this is not enough data to support any thesis :wink: but it made me think that maybe language and culture DO make a difference whether you think that chat messages and emails can be naturally mixed.
I find the fought very interesting.

there are a delta chat group about freedom and decentralization, we are not many currently but if you wanna join write me to adbenitez@riseup.net

If I see this really huge discussion here I think the discussion becomes more and more away from the title’s mind.

If we see this title not too strict IMHO we really don’t need so much more in DC and I fully follow @agutierrez’s arguments.

Here only some basics:

  1. We DON’T need changes in general user interface (like classic MUA not necessary)
  2. Show “all” emails in contact request (user setting) is still there, but
  3. Alert or indicate for new mails in contact requests (user setting)
  4. Forward one mail to several recipients (without creating a dedicated group for that)
  5. Show and reply to mails from mailing lists (they are suppressed now)
    Maybe:
  6. Broadcast groups (seperate mail to every member or using BCC)

2 and 3 are the most important features for me because with that You are able to decide to use a classic MUA for some dedicated emails.

All these tweaks would not disturb any stringent use of DC as a “messenger only” but would give all other users the opportunity to use DC as a replacement for classic MUA for most cases.

To finalize my statement: I don’t see “folder management” as a requirement for DC.

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2 and 3 had been existing in older DC versions (Telegram UI around v0.15.0)

Until today I don’t understand why we can’t have it again.

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agree, my position is that DC should replace the basic needs of a classic MUA, it doesn’t have to be one, but to avoid the need of a classic MUA for basic stuff that can be done in a chat app style, also would add to your points, a “reply” functionality which most chats apps have, and that would be useful for clasic MUA, I have chatted with deltachat users using a clasic MUA and it is hard to know to what email they are replying

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to me one of the more important aspects to be a MUA replacement is to be hable to see all emails I would see with a classic MUA, for example mailing list that are not currently supported

In principle DC is able to show mails from mailing lists, but the reply handling for them was unclear and not implemented yet. See according issue in core (https://github.com/deltachat/deltachat-core/issues/125)
Therefore they has been suppressed in the past. As I said: Older versions of DC showed really ALL emails in Contact Requests.
It would not be a big issue to show them, but reply handling would not be possible in current development state!

IMHO basic needs would be really sufficient right now and we are really not far away from them.

But as I see the development (last months): All resources are focused in porting core from C to rust and there is no progress in getting (small) new features or fixing some bugs.
:frowning:

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I would really appreceate a further (at least slow) development of c core to support users needs.

I don’t think it is worth to keep adding new features to the C core, instead just put those in the new core.
but the focus right now is to get the new core stable, if time is spent introducing new features (and new bugs for sure :wink: ) then the porting to Rust will take forever

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I do not want or need another MUA. I do need a replacement for whattsapp.
To me there is a big difference between writing an email, with sometimes legal or business content, phrased over sometimes an hour, written on the keyboard - and a quick hello or a quick foto sent by messenger. These are two completely different use cases to me, even though in both cases the same technology smtp/imap is used. Just like in the olden days when suddenly faxes could be sent over the telephone line (i am old, i know). Two different things.
DC set out to be a messenger, not another Mail client. Therefore this should be the goal, i think.
If along the way, and after DC is as good as other messengers, additional email functionality is added or a second, alternative version is made (Delta.Chat.Mail DCM), then just the better.

But only then, first things first.

Otherwise, it would be better to ask the developers of K9 to make a chat-like UI for K9, instead of asking the developers of DC to make DC a mailhandler instead of a messenger.

As someone said before, “do one thing and do it well.” Then build up on it.

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Yes, IMHO as well, emailing and chatting are very different. And deltachat is only working on building the chat side of things.

Yet Email-chat flourishes based on good cooperation with email.

There are really very much of intricate things involved in finding and improving a universal usability.

Just recently another user found a really nice way to solve a lot of group chat manageability and email interoperation problems with an absolutely non-obtrusive integration of a “chat topic” filter. I didn’t add the “subject handling” compatibility to the basic usability wiki page before, because the ideas just didn’t feel like native chat solutions yet. But now, allowing for these optional “chat topics”, some day, seems like the sought after, “native” but compatible solution.

Concerning the most basic usability, let me just point out one cooperative solution for a very basic problem, the double notifications that happen in the chat client and the email client. Over time only one way was found, that is considerably simple and can work reliably in all cases universally (not withstanding other more specific, and complicated solutions).

The simple solution is, to disable the (audio & visual) notifications in the email client, and letting deltachat also generate notifications about new emails in the INBOX (that will open the email app). The chat client is the only one that can (and already does) the distinguishing between chat messages (text and administrative) and emails.

Adding optional notifications for emails to deltachat is maybe a 5% effort on top of what was needed anyway, and what is already implemented. So, it’s rather a really cheap solution actually, considering it is providing a solution to a really general usability problem, and it is simple enough to configure (or maybe even auto configure) for less technical users.

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never had a problem, always use k9 and DC

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Let me share one more notion why I like to have two apps for my emails.

I have tons of them, and it’s really helpful to have DC that do operational tasks for me: notify and answer things I want to see immediately. Often I see a notification from DC, understand it’s a long one, and open it with MUA.

And second is the stream of emails which I manage in convenient hours and have a good mood because I don’t need to search urgent pieces in this stream.

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Replacement for a MUA only in the case if there are simple text emails.
It makes sense to use DC to give user maximum information about a mail but not to replace MUA for a complicated mail structure or even HTML mail.

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Additionally DC should get user aware of new emails. Related format user should be able to recognize if it is to handle by DC or it is necessary to handly it better by MUA.

That’swhat it want to see.

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I am content with a 2 app approach.

DC does one thing well.

K-9 by contrast does free well.