Testrun email pumping isn't something praiseworthy

Good team, developers, user,

my person became aware that the new versions seemingly push new user toward the use of “darknet” easy creating an account on testrun.org server.

Where and how would testrun be different and better as google, facebook and co, since all started with pseudoliberal suggestion likewise in the past.

By such promotion DC leaves the area of neutrality and like IT-giants pull people into wished dependency.

My person would suggest to seek for ways people easier could run their own server, by own efforts, or get in dependency with other who at least have a face, name and proper declaration of their services.

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I get your vibe, but I hope nine.testrun.org will simply act as a good example of a Chatmail server, and a sane default for now.
There are other Chatmail servers, but I agree, switching to them UX-wise is not as easy.

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Good point. People keep asking about this in the DC Community chat, and about whether they can migrate to a different Chatmail server later.

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The website does not even have an imprint. It’s certain clear that DC got total out of frame by the poisioned ideologies, infected by Anonymous-partisan “worriers”. Each new release, since Webdx, another step pulling people into the partisan jungle.

It also might touch telecommunication issues (although they run perverse as well).

There is no free, no liberality, within the Universe, yet there is such as good association, dependence, with people of right view, knowing sacrifice, people of gratitude, or bad dependence, with people of wrong view, denying obligation, debts and go for rights and ingratitude.

It’s not at all a matter of compassion to cheat people that sharing ways that their deeds will not bear fruits, don’t cause indebtedness. But itjs a matter of just compassion and acknowledged of good deeds, to warn of foolish, deluded ways.

Why not serving people with upright relations and regulated spheres, with a useful email app, at firts place, since the “outlaws” will nevertheless batch their tools to try to escape common obligation and feed on society by denying debts.

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The nine.testrun.org gives addresses for complaints and regulatory information at nine.testrun.org privacy

Moreover, chatmail servers are not claiming to be unlike google, but they verifiably are.
There is no long-term storage of messages and only end-to-end encrypted messages can leave the server, and log-files are only kept in RAM and removed after two days.

The main reason for using nine as a default onboarding server is that all chatmail servers are quite young, and we want to be sure that people who onboard with the new releases will have their accounts usable also next year. The chatmail server ecosystem is just starting to evolve and “loosing one’s account” would be a bad outcome that would also keep others from trying Delta Chat.

Moreover, i am unfortunately not sure what is meant when talking the universe, liberality, compassion, “deluded ways” etc. There are many people, especially younger ones, who do not have much of a conception of e-mail, and they also have no strong tie to an e-mail address. Instead of them worrying how to use their gmail, gmx or other existing accounts, they can use a chatmail server with far less dependency, metadata or restrictions, and get instant message delivery, also an often requested feature.

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Good master Holger,

what’s the different between telegram and DC then? If a large IT company pulls toward owned adds and tools, the common crowd gets hysterical and seeks for crack-down.

If it’s a by good master Holger owned company web.site, why does the domain don’t carry imprint?

Nothing different here at all, just “smart marketing”. Why not being simply honest to people: if acting badly, you’ll bear the fruits, no encryption and deny of responsibility will prevent such. Right personal love is peoples protection and never any kind of Robin hood undertaking.

Running messenger via email is not at least very inefficient, causing far more energy waste as central servers.

The origin aspiration promoted has been run off, that’s for sure. My person fully understands that there are less willing and even able to be generous, yet heavily dislikes inhonest ways.

The last days my person suggested a devoted to install given DC just to see him having been caught by contracts of common within seconds… it’s easy to catch others by their greed, laziness and by suggesting false hopes.

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Have you even looked into Telegram? Telegram admins can very likely read all your messages because they are not end-to-end encrypted.

Chat mail admins cannot do that because only encrypted stuff is on the mail servers.

Furthermore, Delta Chat does not promote shady cryptocurrency as “telegram has created so much money value for people because this mini app gave them some new crypto coins.”, just read recent posts from durov’s channel (telegram CEO and owner) then you’ll find out what telegram is about.

privacy policy says it’s operated by merlinux, which has a link to the merlinux site, which has an imprint:

Welcome to nine.testrun.org , the default chatmail onboarding server for Delta Chat users. It is operated on the side by a small sysops team employed by merlinux, an open-source R&D company also acting as the fiscal sponsor of Delta Chat app developments. See other chatmail servers for alternative server operators.
~ first paragraph on the privacy site of nine.testrun.org

Not really. chatmail server configuration is one of the most efficient email server setups that you can make.
But even with all bloat that normal email servers do (spam scoring and malware scanning), I bet sending an email is still more efficient than visiting a popular website without an ad-blocker (have you seen how much traffic all the tracking and advertising generates?).

I also criticize that the lazy just end up with a default account, though maybe that’s just bad karma for exchanging devotion with laziness & convenience in the first place… Jokes aside, there is a polite way to express concern, and there is a passive-aggressive way. I would appreciate it if your person would stop accusing us of ill intent so much.

We can talk about how to change that flow to make the login screen more visible, there are multiple ideas that could improve it. I’m also not completely happy with the instant onboarding, but I also see the advantages in it (First impression, forced encryption, working push notifications, optimised for chatting).

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Also you seem to be against encryption in general.

When you really think about how the world really works, that opinion makes not much sense.

Higher beings such as God/s, or whoever people believe in, can read encryption anyway because they are all-seeing, so the only thing encryption protects you from is other humans.

And as we all (hopefully) know, humans can be very cruel if they “disagree” with you.

Just look back a few decades back in history and take the communists or the Nazis; they would have loved to read all your messages in clear text, and if they had seen that you don’t completely followed their party lines, they would have come for you.

Encryption protects you from those and other bad actors.

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Neither good Simon, nor Master Holger, nor any way of wishing to hide, protects anybody, but simply being clear of debts, gratitude, goodwill, virtue and harmlessness.

The created tool will be soon a hit for what ever crimes and unskilful acts and the good team will even host it by other means. The crowd they think that their are worthy of sacrifices will be the first to blame and claim.

Wishing for anarchy and jungle one will have to go on living an animal like existence in fear and after collecting and hunt.

It would be much more of value if seeing (in the case of wishing to provide with server) “good mr. x.” generous (or traded) possibility, or “maintained by Republic German” (sponsered by the national social found), or what ever clear declaration.

It will simply not work that liberal either, since the majority of people has no moral and virtue, is neither wise, nor knows obligations. My person don’t think that merlix and co will be able to bear a huge darknet host. Coming that way, other people will not make use of the brand DC or risk being suspected when carry testrun email.

How ever, my person does not think that many here get anything understood as wrong view roles in your world.

Don’t one think that this steady "!"s are claims.

As certain contributions had been made with the exclaimer “only for harmless and good purposes” my person does no more see any of such supported and thinks good to remark that they are used improper and careless.

My person can’t remember much of discussion of implementation… so seemingly a well put strategical step, but my person does just follow here, not in MS-sponsered or It-giants generated development areas you might make use of in larger way to “fight” them.

Not knowing, not seeing, might be not understood as ill-intended, yet it still is, while keeping one from wrong deed instead of helping to hide them up, might be understood as ill-will either. Pseudoliberality is most dangerous, degenerating and evil.

Just some final words on the issue from one living in real forest, yet not to take there what ever desiring like common villagers

Even good Simon can, could, read everything my person wrote the last 20 years. No secrets at all, expect.

Good Simon might not be aware how much “Gods” protect him open or secretly by seeing, reading, hearing that he’s up to act wrong. Don’t one think of how protective worldly institutions protect their folk from terror, crimes, cheats…

While there are three governing principles toward prosperty, the Self, the world (wiser and careful beings), the good teaching. Anonymity, encryption, deny of responsibility, pseudoliberalism, and anarchy is not, but a gate to all possible bad, as depriving from all governing principles at once.

IMO the main purpose of Chatmail, if you read the page dedicated to it and the first blog post, is not just decentralization (or centralization on a single Chatmail server) and forced E2E encryption, but rather better UX of making an account and logging in, and the speed of message delivery.

If there was a way to create GMail / Outlook / whatever account in one click and get push notifications, I’m sure there wouldn’t be a need such a thing as Chatmail.
And inability to send unencrypted messages from Chatmail is rather an unfortunate sacrifice you have to make to avoid spam (see linked articles).

I don’t think Delta Chat should only focus on working on third-party email servers.
And, perhaps, if those services looked at what Delta Chat can do with Chatmail, they might consider implementing Chatmail features (push notifications and instant signup) as well.

At the end of the day, I think third party server support and interoperability with other email clients are here to stay, and they work quite nicely.

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Since the begining my person suggested to modify DC so that a “privat” email server owner could stay away for use of “free” and does not need to lead others to use what’s not really given to them or with other interest.

Those encouragement, incl. “why not making a DC-server” had always been rejected by “we don’t want to be provider, we just make a tool to make use of other possible” seemingly founded by State taxes.

Now the strategy and objectives have seemingly changed incl. possible previous demands by supporter.

It’s all not about the tools but about ways of conduct and moral. Once peoople of wrong view have enough merits they usually act like those who they opposed. Dealing with sharing something as “free” of which isn’t is commmon way to try to gain status, wealth, power… but it’s not long lasting.

It runs in ways that it becomes a perfect tool for all outlaw, criminal, unethical, rebellion, separatism and anarchic activism, with either well intended or foolish blind support of what’s the outcome of such.

Being total naive or well cheated to tell other that gaining independence by use, one actually get total dependend to even read or use one’s communications.

And by forced encryption, forced depersonalization of one’s communication, one total relays on techs, can’t use anything outside the providers defacto centralisation.

It’s not possible to go on anywhere without dependence and debt toward other and there is nothing free aside of the choice of whom one relays on, gett indebted to. Yet this freedom of choice requires not only own effort but also the freedom to be able to renounce comfort. Since people at large don’t have such freedom of choice, aren’t encouraged to work their ways out by acting virtuous, they get caught where ever they go, likewise those who think to provide liberation get caught by their dependens.

My person has long time avoided to suggest helpful since it will nevertheless be used just for increasing the cemeteries.

Maybe there will be those who are able to make a tool for people who are willing to give into effort of, by maintaining server and app for their community in a mannner that’s virtuous and far off of Robin hood ideals.

Common people wouldn’t buy it, sincethey are used to get it “free” and “ruleless”. That’s the point where the businessman needs to follow the path of cheat unless he would take his own possession and act really generously.

Thanks Samanajohann for offering your thoughts and critique. As discussed in another chat let’s aim to discuss this further in a few weeks, based on some.distance and calm that comes from disengaging from further posting here. Wishing you a good relaxed time.

I think it’s good to have a server where creating anonymous accounts is easy, as it can allow people to communicate without repressive governments knowing who their friends are. Repressive governments sometimes track a person’s social web so that their friends can be suspects of any political activities that the person they originally started tracking participated in. However, it really needs to be made clear in the onboarding screen that you can log in with an existing email account, or that you can use other chatmail servers other than nine.testrun.org.

I think what it should do is provide these options:

  • Create anonymous chatmail account on nine.testrun.org
  • Create anonymous chatmail account on other chatmail servers
  • Log in with your existing email
  • Connect to another DeltaChat device which is logged in to your existing email or chatmail account

When creating a chatmail account, it should say that chatmail accounts are not tied to your name, can be created by anyone at any time, and forbid you from sending unencrypted messages.

I think this would be a major onboarding improvement.

Additionally, the worst thing a chatmail server operator could do is to “shadowban” users (secretly choose not to send their emails), and if the users use Firebase Cloud Messaging or Apple Push Notification Service, the chatmail operator could determine their identity by modifying the chatmail software to log the push notification device tokens in plaintext and creating a database of emails versus push notification device tokens. There is nothing a chatmail server operator can do against users who’ve left the service unless the operator has access to a very large and very reliable quantum computer with which to decrypt messages from the last 20 days (and these quantum computers will likely not exist for at least another decade). (as far as I know, I’m not an expert)