[Discussion] Make DC a replacement for MUAs?

Yes, actually the differences may ask for possibilities to adapt rather than divide into “silos”.

One thing to consider is a major point of the autocrypt and Email-chat standards that is they allow to communicate with the entire world, i.e. with users on their non-specific clients as well.

It’s thus important for many users to be able to easily write and receive messages that match the expectations in both worlds.

And it’s certainly possible to empower users, by finding a straight forward UI as well:

See this post, for example: Subject of emails - #69 by testbird

the problem arrives when those two world collide, one of the selling points of Delta Chat is that your friends doesn’t have to install Delta Chat to chat with you, and most the time they will not want to install yet another app, on the other hand, if you install Delta Chat you must have two apps to check the email just with different views, and your classic email client will annoy you with notifications of your own messages, since Delta Chat sends a self-bcc copy of every email you send. Also for paid data plans, it is a hassle to have two apps downloading the same messages.
So it turns out that a lot of people want to use Delta Chat has their only MUA

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I think I’m more or less understanding your point of view @agschaid

But, you are telling me that no instant messaging application (WhatsApp, Telegram Etc.) could be used for formal and respectful messages, with very well crafted phrases. I think you suffer from the disease of habit, you have used email for formal communication, and instant messaging for more casual topics, I think it’s just a matter of habit.
Anyway, whether you like it or not, many people will use DC as their only mail client, and that practice will eventually be extended.

But I tell you more, I know people who don’t know another mail client other than DeltaChat.
And that’s why DeltaChat necessarily has to be prepared for this.

Being able to fully take over the management of email messages is an option that should be implemented, in the simplest way possible.

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No. I am not telling you that.
I used the word “informal”. But actually more as an example and to be concise. I never said anything about “respectful” or “well crafted phrases”.

I talked to future bosses via chat. I gave and received condolences via chat. That is as respectful and well crafted as it gets. But STILL I feel that the rhythm and feeling between those two mediums differ greatly. And I wouldn’t want those two different modi operandi represented in the same UI.

You guys do the work. You call the shots. I am really cool with that.
I figured this was open discussion and so I gave my point of view.

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I beg to differ. It took me less than 5 minutes to find a setup for DC and K-9 to coexist without the hassle you are describing. Feel free to contact me for details. I think it’s beside the point here.

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I also would be interested in your way k9 and DC work harmonious side by side.

I prefer if DC would stay a messenger only :wink:

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I do also use k9, please share your tips and tricks here so everybody knows,
anyway it is more easy to say to your friends: “hey stop using that stock email app and use this full feature email client that works as a chat app” than saying “hey use Delta Chat, and you will also need to install k9 and follow this tutorial to fine tune both apps, because it doesn’t play well with your email client”
the whole process get a bit annoying and more for non tech people.

also I have the feeling that your solution imply disabling push-IMAP in k9, or some server side filtering

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First of all, I apologize for the way I expressed myself before.

I am sure that we all have the best intentions for the development of this magnificent application.

Now I ask:

  • You expect that everyone who uses DC necessarily has to install another application for their mail management, because DC is not good enough to do the same?
  • Or expect DC to be able to coexist with another MUA without problems, and if the user decides to stay with him alone, DC will be able to provide the minimum tools necessary to do so.
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Just to talk about wording. :wink:

If I say to my (WhatsApp using) friends:
Heh, there is a new great Mail Client you can chat with.
They will answer: I don’t need a mail client. I use mail only very less. And I have a mail app which works good for me.

If I say there is a new great messenger you can reach everybody who have a mail address.
Hopfully they will install it side by side with WhatsApp.

Remember this is only my sight of this.
And belive me, in my milieu E-mail is really less important. Everybody does all via messengers.

I know, in Cuba E-mail is more popular then in many other countries.

Still I think a messenger should stay very plain in design.
Only the very important UI things and settings.

For example:
All my friends using for Mail on the mobile phone the special mail apps (f.g. for gmx they use the gmx app).
One time I tried to explain K9. Bad idea. There was to much settings. I like it but the “normal user”. will only use it without to have to much to configure.

The same for messengers.
The “normal user” want just start to chat.
Just a simple view of the current chats and a contact list.

You want another view for “normal” mails.
I’m sure that’s a bad idea.

A idea would be if someone would fork DC and integrate a mail view as you like.
This could exist side by side with DC. Maybe it will happens if DC and OX-Coi will be famous enough to be a replacement for WhatsApp.

Another mail client will never replace a messenger :wink:

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You and I, we agree more than we think.

If the survey had put:
Who wants a classic mail view in DC. I am sure that everyone would vote NO.

I think the idea, when we talk about replacement, is that the DC user does not need another client to fully manage his mail server.

So :
What a DC user would look for in another client.

  • Edit the subject
  • Send messages with hidden copy
  • Manage all server messages without so many obstacles (contact request)
  • (There may be other reasons)

The truth is, we don’t need much.

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In K9 I manage 4 Mail addresses for different things.
I have all the stuff what is needed for E-Mail:
-relplay to one
-replay to all
-forward
-move Mails into a other folder
-archive mails
-mark mails with a star
-mark single messages as unread
-manage imap folders (I use much filters to sort my mails)
And another other things.

All I need is a distributed independent messenger with a fast and sorted UI.
Just for short messages.

If you start making DC working as a mail client (subject and so on).
Very soon people will ask for managing all folders (not only inbox and DC folder) or other stuff.

When will you stop to make it more and more to a normal mail client?
With the whole things what is needed.

If you say it’s a messenger, it’s clear defined.

And I’m sure the most people want only a messenger.
That’s why E-Mail is in daily use most replaced bei different messengers.

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And another thing I forgot.

There is a lot of work until DC is a full featured messenger.

And I think if DC has all features of a good messenger then we can talk about to extend it to a full featured mail client messenger :wink:

@webratte Personally, I just use Thunderbird (on my laptop) for these “advanced” features. But I agree with @agutierrez that these rather “basic” email features would be nice in DC.

Also, concerning the “different worlds” arguments ([Discussion] Make DC a replacement for MUAs?): When I wrote emails to friends, I never wrote “Hi” or “Kind regards” or anything, except maybe in the first email for several months. I am just writing as “informal” as with messengers.

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I think I have to appologize too for being a bit touchy and passive aggressive in my last post.

I think the idea of “having to install another app for plain email” is a bit funny. Basically everybody allready HAS an email app. It is DC that will always be “another app to install”. And yes I would prefer everybody to have two apps . . . not because DC would “not be good enough” but because DC would focus on what it is really good at.

@adbenitez and @webratte
concerning my setup: as adbenitez suspected there is something server side filtering involved. This of course makes sense since I want to get DC messages out of the way for ALL my IMAP mail clients (K-9, mutt/thunderbird, webviewer,…)

So if the topic of a mail starts with "Chat: " I move it to the DC folder. I had tried to filter by the designated header but it didn’t work right away when I did the “quick and dirty” setup and there was no reason to change it ever since.

in the DC preferences I have the following settings:

  1. watch INBOX is OFF
  2. watch Sent folder is ON
  3. watch Delta Chat folder is ON
  4. automatically move to Delta Chat folder is ON

I suspect that I could disable 2. and or 4.
But I never tried. Never had any problems.

in K-9 I deactivated notifications and automatic syncing for the Delat Chat folder.

Anyway.

For various reasons I ditched DC a few days ago (mainly because I never had more than one other guy that used it). So I’ll take the liberty to simply not respond to anymore :wink: (maybe I’ll do. But don’t think bad of me if I don’t)

Take care. Be kind.

One parting thought:
given his name @webratte has German as his (or her) mother tongue (it is my mother tongue too). I suspect that @adbenitez and @agutierrez have Spanish or Portuguese as their mother tongue. Of course this is not enough data to support any thesis :wink: but it made me think that maybe language and culture DO make a difference whether you think that chat messages and emails can be naturally mixed.
I find the fought very interesting.

there are a delta chat group about freedom and decentralization, we are not many currently but if you wanna join write me to adbenitez@riseup.net

If I see this really huge discussion here I think the discussion becomes more and more away from the title’s mind.

If we see this title not too strict IMHO we really don’t need so much more in DC and I fully follow @agutierrez’s arguments.

Here only some basics:

  1. We DON’T need changes in general user interface (like classic MUA not necessary)
  2. Show “all” emails in contact request (user setting) is still there, but
  3. Alert or indicate for new mails in contact requests (user setting)
  4. Forward one mail to several recipients (without creating a dedicated group for that)
  5. Show and reply to mails from mailing lists (they are suppressed now)
    Maybe:
  6. Broadcast groups (seperate mail to every member or using BCC)

2 and 3 are the most important features for me because with that You are able to decide to use a classic MUA for some dedicated emails.

All these tweaks would not disturb any stringent use of DC as a “messenger only” but would give all other users the opportunity to use DC as a replacement for classic MUA for most cases.

To finalize my statement: I don’t see “folder management” as a requirement for DC.

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2 and 3 had been existing in older DC versions (Telegram UI around v0.15.0)

Until today I don’t understand why we can’t have it again.

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agree, my position is that DC should replace the basic needs of a classic MUA, it doesn’t have to be one, but to avoid the need of a classic MUA for basic stuff that can be done in a chat app style, also would add to your points, a “reply” functionality which most chats apps have, and that would be useful for clasic MUA, I have chatted with deltachat users using a clasic MUA and it is hard to know to what email they are replying

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to me one of the more important aspects to be a MUA replacement is to be hable to see all emails I would see with a classic MUA, for example mailing list that are not currently supported